Yesterday the right-of-center coalition together with the environmentalists voted to guarantee tax-funded health care and schooling for illegal immigrants (In Swedish media the term used to obfuscate is "papperslösa", "those with no papers"). In addition, illegal immigrants will be allowed to start businesses. This decision is today cheered by Swedish libertarians, who also supported amnesty a couple of years ago.
The most prominent libertarians of intellectuals of the 20th century - Milton Friedman, Friedrich Hayek and Robert Nozick - all opposed open borders for welfare states. But today's libertarians are not as thoughtful. They are motivated by simplistic arguments, such as borders being created by politicians and therefore automatically bad, or that since free trade with China is good, free trade with people must also be good to. But unlike Chinese plastic toys, immigrants collect welfare, impose negative social externalities such as crime on others, and vote themselves even more benefits.
Historically socialists fought to abolish private rights and property, while modern socialists and libertarians fight to abolish our collective rights and properties. The most prominent of these are rights we have granted each other in democracies to vote over common decisions, backed by the threat of coercion.
One Swedish libertarian thus wrote about expanding the welfare state to illegal immigrants: "This is what solidarity is about". (Ayn Rand would surely have been proud to read this).
A blogger at the most important libertarian journal, Neo, fervently defends this latest expansion of the welfare state, with the argument that Sweden is already spending a lot on other stuff. By this logic, the bigger the government already is, the more we should expand it.
Modern libertarianism is a self-destructive ideology. This is because the unskilled immigrant population that open borders invites is an exceptionally infertile ground for libertarian values. Consequently open borders in a democracy will automatically lead to a welfare state as the immigrants sooner or later become the majority of voters.
To no ones surprise, rather than becoming libertarian, immigrants loyally support the Social Democratic welfare state, as their economic self interests and the political culture of their societies would predicts. In the latest Swedish election, only 43% of Swedes but 77% of non-western immigrants voted for the left (this was an unusually bad year for the left, who got 92% of the immigrant vote in 2002!). In the United States, where while only 35% of non-Hispanic whites prefer higher taxes in return for more government services, the figure is 65% for first generation Hispanic immigrants, and 66% for second generation Hispanics.
Benefits to illegal immigrants are unpopular among ordinary swedes, but popular amongst the elites. The elites in Sweden no longer believe or act as if they have been delegated their power and position in life by the public. Instead, they look down at ordinary Swedes as unwashed rubes, identifying instead with elites in other countries. This is the basics of what I call the "The Economist" Class [sic]. This is incidentally the reason why the European Union is ever expanding, elites in Europe identify more with other elites in Europe rather than with non-elites in their respective country.
The ideology of the elites tells them that since all humans are equal, they owe no more to the Swedes than to any random inhabitant of the earth. This despite the fact that it is the Swedes they represent, they are the one who voted for them (if they are politicians), who pay their membership dues (unions), who work for them (industry), who read their texts and trust them to provide the truth (media) or who pay our grants and financed our educations (academia).
Pundits who have only absorbed Adam Smith, Milton Friedman and Hayek on a superficial level (many seem to just have read the abstract) today view the virtue of noblesse oblige as obsolete.
A minority of libertarians in Sweden realize that these laws have negative consequences for our country, but feel compelled to support open borders because of ideology, which tells them that the government has no right to control borders. Those to the left who don't like this law are also stuck in their ideology, since that tells them that because all humans are equal, it must be racist to give free health care to Swedes but not to an Albanian who broke our laws and crossed our border.
Hayek and other idea-historians consider Anglo-Saxon conservatism a sub-category of classical liberalism (what Swedes simply call liberalism). However, unlike libertarianism, intellectual conservative theory does not have any problem reconciling policies that benefit society with policies derived from ideological axioms.
The nation state is a mutual defense and cooperation pact, something we have created through the implicit social compact to improve collective decision making. We therefore have more obligations and responsibilities towards other citizens (needless to say regardless of their race), than we do towards other random people on the planet. This is particularly true for anyone who has been entrust elite status in politics or academia or intellectual life, and particularly true for people like me who have been given the gift of citizenship by Swedes. The responsibility for the welfare of Albanian children meanwhile belongs to Albania.
Any ideology that leads you to a conflict what you believe is good for society and what your ideology compels you to believe is flawed by design. This is why Anglo-Saxon conservatism at its finest is the lack of an ideology.
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Maybe Friedman, Hayek och Nozick were wrong?
ReplyDeleteBryan Caplan talk on immigration
EconTalk interview with Caplan
Caplan on Friedman and free immigration, Milton Friedman Opposed a Pareto Improvement
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI have no respect for Bryan Caplan ever since he banned me from his blog after I - in my albeit biased opinion - defeated him and his followers regarding illegal immigration.
ReplyDeleteBryan Caplan has never offered any response to the "what will happen when left-leaning immigrants are the majority" population argument.
His only argument is that Hispanic immigrants cannot possibly be more left than ordinary Americans (whom he considered socialist).
A few years ago I posted the poll about Hispanic views on government on his blog, which appears to have been part of the reason he banned me.
I find his claim that ANYONE is surely more libertarian than American voters detached from reality. Americans are not libertarian like Caplan, but they are the most libertarian leaning people on the planet.
That's a shame. I like his blog but I don't like the way he fails to engage his comments section.
ReplyDeleteI'm a libertarian and against a welfare as a general matter. I share your concern that immigrants would stand in the way of pro-freedom policies. Still, I think the welfare, wealth, and freedom generating (on aggregate relative to where they left) effects of significantly increasing immigration make it worth it even if it makes America less free in the long run. Even though I think a sufficiently large increase in immigration would probably make things slightly worse for me or my decedents I think this would be worth it.
Still, I think the welfare, wealth, and freedom generating (on aggregate relative to where they left) effects of significantly increasing immigration make it worth it even if it makes America less free in the long run.
ReplyDeleteSo let me get this straight. You're fine with the trade-off between the welfare of immigrants being enhanced at the expense of those in the host society who don't want the immigrants arriving due to the negative externalities that they cause. If the principle of enhancing the welfare of immigrants is so important to you can you share with us how much of your income you're freely giving to people around the world? I mean, if you wish to live by a principle then shouldn't you bear the cost of implementing that principle rather than applauding the application of the principle when it comes at the expense of those who must unwillingly bear the cost. What kind of libertarian principle is that? Surely hypocrisy isn't a core principle of the libertarianism I know.
Even though I think a sufficiently large increase in immigration would probably make things slightly worse for me or my decedents I think this would be worth it.
This comes across as empty posturing. You get to bolster your ego today while hypothetically acknowledging some far distant outcome. Why don't you purposely align the costs of this policy with the outcomes by making a concerted effort to burden yourself today. That way you can proudly tell us all that you're beggering yourself for the benefit of others and you think that the enhanced welfare of the immigrants is, on net, more important than the diminished welfare that you're experiencing.
My experience is that I probably can't convince anyone who responds to my comment with "So let me get this straight..." I'm hoping you came off snarkier than you meant to and you actually care about my response, so here you go.
ReplyDeleteI believe that countries are simply collections of people. I think that human rights should not depend on which of these collections you belong to. My neighbors are not entitled to more freedom than other humans around the world. A modest reduction in liberty in America so that tens or hundreds of millions can be much freer is a trade I consider worth doing. In time I believe liberty will win out and those reductions in liberty here will be undone.
The negative externalities are mostly in the form of crime, crowding, and welfare. I already said that I was against the welfare state. I would be happy to make immigrants foregoing the welfare state part of a bargain to increase immigration. To punish most potential immigrants because a few will commit crimes strikes me as a form of foolish collective punishment which I oppose. Crowding in the form of busier roads, higher housing prices, etcetera seems to me to be either a moral non-issue (because you are not entitled to the status quo just because it suits you) or a failure of property rights (like a lack of congestion pricing on roads) neither of which are good reasons to oppose a significant increase in immigration.
I hope that addressed some of your questions about my position. Let me know if you want me to clarify or elaborate anything.
I believe that countries are simply collections of people.
ReplyDeleteSimply a collection of people? No more? Culture doesn't play a part in defining the differences between various nations? If we performed a Gedankenexperiment and teleported the population of Saudi Arabia into the US and the US population into Saudi Arabia but kept all of the laws and institutions in each country intact, then what would happen? Would Americans having to live under Saudi law assimilate to Saudi norms and would a US now comprised entirely of Saudis living under American law assimilate to American norms?
I don't find your assertion that countries are simply collections of people a very persuasive point.
I think that human rights should not depend on which of these collections you belong to.
Where are you sourcing this notion of this thing called human rights? Did this notion spring forth from a cultural milieu? If it did then doesn't that invalidate your claim that nations are simply agglomerations of people? If this notion of human rights didn't originate from a cultural tradition, or from a philosophy which is born from a cultural tradition, then why isn't your notion of human rights recognized universally as being self-evident?
My neighbors are not entitled to more freedom than other humans around the world.
Freedom isn't granted, it's earned. Cultures develop common precepts and commonly held behaviors. Freedom is enforced within some cultures and not others. People are entitled to what they are willing to fight for.
A modest reduction in liberty in America so that tens or hundreds of millions can be much freer is a trade I consider worth doing.
ReplyDeleteMy point is that you're patting yourself on the back for your magnanimous attitude as you trade away the liberty of your fellow countrymen so that others may experience an increase in welfare. This attitude has much similarity with what we see in liberals who believe that they demonstrate their compassion and empathy by advocating that government spend other people's money on the social problems that liberals find pressing. I asked you what liberty and welfare you are personally sacrificing in order to be true to your philosophy. I didn't spy any details on this issue within your response. From where I stand you bear a striking similarity to those liberals who delude themselves by believing that their calls for other people to pay for addressing the social ills that they identify mark them as caring and compassionate people. The most effective way for liberals to earn their compassion stripes is to bear individual sacrifice in furtherance of the cause they support and similarly the best way for libertarians of your stripe to demonstrate their love of universal liberty is to sacrifice their own liberty and welfare so that people half way around the world can have their liberty and welfare enhanced. Calling for others to bear the sacrifice while you pat yourself on the back for your liberty and welfare enhancing beliefs rings very hollow.
In time I believe liberty will win out and those reductions in liberty here will be undone.
That's all well and good. There are lots of people who believe in dreamy notions with little empirical support behind them but your engaging in rhetoric designed to show us how liberty loving you are without putting your own skin in the game doesn't really add any substance to your statement.
Here's a suggestion - instead of imposing externalities on your unwilling neighbors by advancing this notion that they should bear the cost for enhancing the liberty of people not of their culture, why don't you take your mission to a foreign land and use your talents to enhance the liberty there. After all, nations are no more than collections of people, so from your perspective you wouldn't be diminishing your own welfare in the slightest by removing yourself from America and reestablishing yourself in Somalia. Somalis are no different than Americans. The borders that define the nations, and their peoples, are merely arbitrary and have no real world meaning.
I was banned from EconLog, but not by any of the bloggers. Barkley Rosser said he was boycotting the comments due to its moderation. Were you given a reason why you were banned?
ReplyDeleteWhy I was banned.
ReplyDeleteYou're point in general seems to be that immigrants have a large cost (vote for the left, worse work ethic, more prone to criminality) - hence Sweden should minimize immigration. Moreover, only the elite seems to want to have more immigration while regular folks do not, another reason for having less immigration.
ReplyDeleteTo which I'm thinking:
1) Where's the benefit side of immigration in this picture? Why doesn't it overtake the costs?
2) You've said before that working class Swedes lose from immigration, probably through lowered wages, but I've seen no evidence of that.
3) Who cares what most people think is the correct policy? If I sympathize with the morality of the elite in this case, i.e. it is good to help out the worst of (and I do mean the _worst_ off), then this policy has large benefits. Similarly, voters rarely like free trade and free markets, but most libertarians would praise new free trade deals. What's the problem?
4) I think I know what you think the problem is: political economy. This will increase the role of the populist right, which is bad even if they would reduce immigration because they like the welfare state. Question: what's the marginal effect if this policy on SD's vote share? I'm guessing it's small and this immigration policy has more moral pros going for it than most others.
5) You're other political economy prediction is instead that more people will vote for the left. But the ethnic-diversity-and-redistribution-literature (with a very recent paper taking the case of Sweden) indicates that, if anything, more immigrations will make the welfare state _smaller_.
Mounir Karadja: could you please give a reference to the paper about Sweden that indicates that more immigration makes the welfare state smaller, thanks.
ReplyDelete1) Where's the benefit side of immigration in this picture? Why doesn't it overtake the costs?
ReplyDeleteThe benefits are significantly dependent on the human capital measure of the immigrants. If the immigrant class is disproportionately from the net tax recipient class then the costs are going to outweigh the benefits. To your question, I suspect that the benefits are not overtaking the costs because Sweden's immigrant community has more net tax recipients than net tax contributors.
If I sympathize with the morality of the elite in this case, i.e. it is good to help out the worst of (and I do mean the _worst_ off), then this policy has large benefits.
I'm not so sure that it is the moral issue which is driving the elite in this direction for I suspect that there is more self-interest involved. Their lives are made easier when there is an increased supply of people who can perform manual labor in activities which make the elite's lives richer. The reap the privatized gains and they socialize the losses.
Even if this issue was being decided on a moral basis, those who support it are being awfully presumptuous in advocating for a solution which aids strangers and passes the costs of that aid onto the rest of society. The moral case would be stronger if advocates were willing to specify how they were going to harm their own interests in order to aid the welfare of distant people. For instance, advocates could willingly impose an additional 15% income tax or 15% property tax on themselves with the proceeds being directed to offset the negative externalities which arise from the implementation of the policy that they favor.
As for the comparison to free trade it falters on two fronts. First, trade goods don't come with social welfare costs attached, people do. Second, with free trade there are winners and losers in society so the issue is one of how the gains are distributed within society. The welfare enhancement which arises from this immigration issues falls primarily on the immigrant and the costs fall onto society, that is the costs are borne internally and the benefits fall externally when the unit of analysis is society at large.
The "countries are just collections of people" claim I find bizarre. First, countries can surely be analysed fairly straightforwardly as clubs. Second, how institutions work make a huge difference for quality of life. Third, the degree of overlap in broad preferences, historical and cultural references and understandings, etc clearly affects how societies function. Fourth, people clearly have group identities which affect outlooks and behaviour.
ReplyDeleteThe whole perspective shows a lack of understanding of history, social dynamics, institutional and club good economics etc which is difficult to see anything other than either deep ignorance or the triumph of attitude over analysis (or both).
Culural diversity has benefits, but it also has costs. One needs to be able to grasp both to have any chance of talking sense on such issues.
Just as the need to avoid generating poisonous resentments has to be part of any sensible political outlook. Taxing folk to pay for people who they perceive (often correctly) as imposing costs on them and then telling them they have no right to have a say about any of this is spectactularly unclever. Telling them that "countries are just groups of individuals" is not only not going to help, it is just going to annoy folk because it is patently not true.
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ReplyDeleteI meant that countries are morally identical to groups of people or clubs. Some clubs are well run and produce more benefits from their members than the resources they consume and others do not. Some churches are well run and others run into the ground. My libertarianism is a form of Cosmopolitanism, in the sense that "all human ethnic groups belong to a single community based on a shared morality".
ReplyDeleteI recognize that countries act as though they are not beholden to the rules of other groups of people, I just don't condone them doing so.
I also recognize that many people in countries are similar, along a number of dimensions. I just don't see how that is of moral significance. I don't accept that I have a special moral duty to people of my race, gender, height, weight, or eye color, and so I don't see why I should have a special moral duty to my countrymen. I recognize that many other people don't agree but people believe all sorts of terrible things for terrible reasons, so their rejection of cosmopolitanism doesn't bother me.
@Tangoman
You might not agree with my beliefs, but some beliefs about the future path of political preferences are essential to any sort of analysis like this. You think that a substantial increase in immigration will permanently reduce the level of freedom in a country. I'm curious why you are certain that this is not so.
Mounir
ReplyDeleteThe papers that calculate the cost of immigration calculate the *net* cost, which subtracts total costs from total benefits.
Brojas has shown even in the United States that net benefits are small, and empirically demonstrated that unskilled immigrants lower the wage of unskilled natives, althoug the estimated effect is not huge.
I refer you to his work, which is considered the most authorative on the economics immigration. The Handbook of Labor Economics has a nice chapter about this.
"what most people think is the correct policy"
Well, what they *believe* is one thing, the majority can as you say be wrong. However I care about what *I believe benefits* Swedes, if for no other reason because they gave me asylum, gave us 10 years of welfare, and fully paid for my education in one of the most elite schools in Scandinavia.
You don't think this unpolar decison benefits SD? Let me try to quantify it. The largest anti-immigration blog is http://politisktinkorrekt.info/. Usually they have 30-100 comments for each news. So far they have had 570 comments about welfare to illegal's...
The ethnic-diversity-and-redistribution-literature is flawed. I will write about this soon.
So we have positive net benefits, but a native group loses a few per cent in income in the long run (if they don't adapt to the competition). Sounds a lot like the effects of free trade.
ReplyDeleteI haven't been able to confirm if this is true or not, but it seems that these cost-benefit analyses do not include the welfare gains of immigrants. I understand that you don't value the welfare of foreigners as much as I or most libertarians would, but by my standards omitting this is wrong and bad economics. If you don't think immigrant welfare increases should count then let the debate be about that and not about economics.
"I care about what *I believe benefits* Swedes, if for no other reason because they gave me asylum, gave us 10 years of welfare"
Are you saying that it is because of this life debt to Swedes you that have a moral conviction that the state of Sweden should only help Swedes?
I actually did say that SD would benefit from this. And I'm not sure what is surprising about the fact that a major change in immigration policy attracts above average numbers of comments at an anti-immigration blog. I said that on moral grounds I think the change is worth it and on political-economic grounds the effects are ambiguous. But the burden of evidence shouldn't lay on me, I'm not the one claiming a catastrophe is occuring.
Mounir:
ReplyDeleteWe certainly do not have positive net benefits of immigration to Sweden.
Nor do we have positive net benefits for unskilled immigration to the United States, according to the comprehensive study by NRC.
"but it seems that these cost-benefit analyses do not include the welfare gains of immigrants. "
I just explained to you that they do. If you want me to take the time to respond to you, please take the time to read my responce.
It is clear from my blog post (did you read it?) that in my view all individuals in a elevated public position have a responsibility to help their fellow citizens, who put them there, over forigners, who didn't.
This is particularly true for immigrants.
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ReplyDeleteOne more thing Mounir:
ReplyDeleteEconomics is NOT a normative science. The job of economists is not to advocate policies that maximize Global GDP or whatever you seem to belive.
The job and duty of economists is to give the public the most objective, disintrested analyses possible of the impact of different policies. This way, informed voters get to decide what policy their prefer.
In this example, the majority of Swedish voters should get to decide if they want to lower their standard of living in order to raise the standard of living of illegal immigrants.
Economists have not done so in the case of immigration, where they are generally pushing a normative, pro-immigration agenda. This is why people like you are un-aware that the best studies have already shown that unskilled immigration hurts America and Sweden.
I will not pretend to be as well-read as you in this subject, but I did read your post and reply. What I said about positive net benefits (in the US) is taken from your first reply.
ReplyDeleteAgreed, economics is not a normative science. But it guides the morally based decision of whether something is right or wrong, since it hopefully tells you what the consequences will be. That's where the main difference seems to be here. Thanks for taking time to answer
Tino, do you hava a comment to Caplans(?) claim that immigration reduces the demand of the well-fare state from the native population? Why do you claim that the net demand is increasing with immigration?
ReplyDeleteArtturi:
ReplyDeleteNote that I refer to unskilled immigration:
1. Empirically, American states with a larger minority population share have more welfare expenditure as a share of gross state income.
2. Empirically, the share of the non-Hispanic white vote that goes to the Republican Party is not correlated at all with the share of minorities in the state (so overall whites don’t appear to group together against non-whites).
2. Immigration induced demographic change leads to more pro-welfare state voters, as I show above. Notice that even if immigration makes 100%of native hard-core libertarians, the effect is only temporary, as immigrants under free migration will sooner or later become the majority, making the political views of the native largely irrelevant. This process is happening in the United States.
In 1940 pro-market leaning whites were 90% and left-leanings Hispanics were 1%. In 2050 the Census expects non-Hispanic whites to be 43%, and Hispanics 30% of the population. I will guarantee you that the United States in 2050 will be a place more friendlily to leftist ideas, which is exactly why Democrats are fighting so hard for immigration policies that in the short term hurt their voters.
3. Taking in low income people leads to a larger welfare state through a mechanic effect. Even if you don’t make unemployment insurance more generous, having groups with a higher unemployed rate automatically expands the size of government.
In Scandinavia, 50% of non-western immigrants live on welfare. In the United States, over 30% of Mexican households get some form of welfare benefit. As this population increases, the welfare state expands, even if you have exactly the same laws.
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ReplyDelete4. Having more poor people also increases the *need* for a welfare state. We have a welfare state largely because the middle class and the rich feel sorry for the poor. As immigration leads to more social problems and poverty, this will become stronger. In both Sweden and the United States, the majority of poor children are minorities.
ReplyDeleteTo give you a recent example, the majority of the uninsured in the United States are minorities (40% of all uninsured are Hispanic). The media does not understand and will not tell you this, but the long-run uninsurance rate of non-Hispanics whites’ adults above 25 in the United States is only 3% (which is incidentally the likely explanation why the white Tea Party protestors don’t like Obama-Care, they and their families already have insurance).
The uninsurance ”crisis” would simply never had arisen if the United States only consisted of Montana, because in Montana almost everyone has insurance, there are fewer newspaper stories about victims you want to help etc.
The American left is not stupid or irrational, they rarely demand government intervention where there are few problems.
By the way, since I am on the topic, let me point out that in our planet (but perhaps not in the alternative reality that Bryan Caplan has constructed in his head), because of the solid pro-welfare state voting pattern of immigrants, the you can only have 2 out of 3 of these:
1. Libertarian-leaning policies
2. Open Borders
3. Democracy
The reason is obviously that with free borders immigrants will become the majority and create a welfare state.
I have no problem pickĂng 1 & 3. Caplan and his likes are effectively sacrificing 1 for 2, even though they don’t acknowledge it.
Anyone who tells you they want no welfare state and open borders either doesn’t understand time inconsistence or is against Democracy.
Many of the arguments above are stating Nozick, Hayek, and Friedman were basically wrong. Hmmm.
ReplyDelete“Everybody loves to argue with Milton, particularly when he isn't there“. - George Shultz
Plus one might as well skip any argument regarding anything to do with “state” until they bother to read Robert Nozick’s book Anarchy, State, and Utopia. One had better understand why “state” exists in the very first place before you argue any aspect of state.
1.) Austrian multiculturalists argue that to agree with the analysis of restrictionists or to partially adopt their policy proposals only serves to strengthen the populist right. The way to beat the right-wing populists is to boldly do the exact opposite, that is to say to open the doors and expand welfare for immigrants.
ReplyDeleteThe Swedish Establishment seems to have bought into this remedy of "shutting the door right in the SDs face" so that "Sweden won't turn into another Denmark".
They don't play the part about being bold and unmoved very well though. Rather, they appear unnecessarily frightened about a party with only 5,7% of the vote and which, based on my shallow analysis, appears to be the most boring and timid right-wing nationalist party known to man.
2.) One of Bryan Caplan's arguments is that immigration decreases social trust. And lack of social trust also undermines social democracy and the acceptance for an expansive welfare state. But low trust societies are incredibly statist in countless other ways.
Many libertarians appear to be concerned about tax rates over anything else. I don't necessarily see a contradiction between that and an open border position.
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